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| 27-04-2006 |
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| 1.Today, what does the Justice and Spirituality Movement represent in the Moroccan political scene? |
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| The movement represents the hope for an alternative that would go beyond tribal and cultural differences. It is a school of thought that restores links with positive spirituality and the universal values of Islam, and that seeks to develop a critical approach towards ideas that are instilled, made sacred and presented as truths intrinsically linked to the nature of Islam. I think notably of autocracy. |
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| 2.Can we say that your aspiration is to make the JSM the most recognized opposition to the Makhzen in Morocco? |
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| We do not define ourselves in relation to the Makhzen. We adopt a policy of construction, not of reaction. Our political dimension is brought out only insofar as it is the regime that is in opposition to our thinking. Our thinking is judged as subversive because it questions the ideological foundations that politics have established firmly in our perception of Islam. We think that to be in spirituality means to denounce arbitrariness, nepotism, social iniquity, and contempt for the weakest; all these vices characterize the regime in place, in fact. Our political action would have been more tolerated had there not been that ideological background. We are for legality, non-violence and spiritual education, which defuse somewhere the destructive anger of the desperate youth. |
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| 3.In what case would the JSM accept to take part in the elections? |
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| When there will be real guarantees for democracy. That presupposes radical changes in the political culture of Moroccans, institutions, notably the constitution. That also implies a fair electoral process, not pre-established theatrical performances. |
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| 4.Your movement is very active in many social fields. What are they? And what is the objective of this social commitment? |
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| Power interests us only insofar as it may generate a sort of transformation on a historical scale that enables us to restore links with the spiritual, universal dimension of Islam, and equity that ensues from it not only for our people, but also for the whole mankind. We have non-violence as a basic principle because only education may generate a real change. Changing power does not change man, but changing man can change the nature of power. Power can, however, be a very efficient instrument for change, but never when it is assumed in absolute violence. We then opt for the long term, for the long, painstaking work. This work started a dozen of years ago, and our action took part in forcing the regime, already in the time of Hassan II, to make concessions. It is certainly not enough. Our people deserve better than merely improvised initiatives that have proven fruitless because not backed by institutionalized undertakings. |
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| 5.How can we describe the structure of the movement? Are there other women in positions of responsibility? |
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| The structure of our movement is presented in black and white in our basic theory. The structure of the movement is pyramid-shaped. Decision-making falls to representative institutions elected by the grass roots on a national scale. The women are organized within a female section that represents circa 50 % of the movement. The female section is led nationally by a committee of five women, and by women at all hierarchical levels. Continuous coordination enables perfect harmony between the different levels of the section. |
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| 6.Today, Europe is concerned about the flow of illegal immigrants from and through Morocco. What message can you, and your movement, address to many young people who want to go abroad? |
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| When the dream of a whole youth is to go away, the future of a whole nation is in jeopardy. We breathe into them the strength of staying at home and the vigor of building in a disaster-stricken country by reshaping their worldview in a more optimistic perspective. Jihad has only one meaning, that of resisting and building in hard conditions. The message circulated by the Qur’an is a message of hope, not an incitement to chaos. We teach the young to read this message with new eyes and to go beyond the literal interpretation conditioned by unnatural traditions. |
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| 7.Are you in contact with the Moroccan communities living in Europe? |
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| Many of our members have settled for one reason or another in foreign countries. They circulate, of course, the main principles of the school of thought to which they belong, and keep contact with the movement. But there is no organizational extension of our movement abroad. In Europe, the political context is diametrically opposed insofar as there are real democratic opportunities, and the possibility to take part in positive action as far as the civil society is concerned. Our members are instructed to integrate in the host societies and take part in constructive action within a legal framework. |
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| 8.And with the other Islamist movements? |
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| It depends on what you mean by “contact” and also by “Islamist movements”. If you talk of the local or international Islamist movements that have opted for a legitimate political action, then yes, but they are contacts within a quite ordinary cultural framework. Our contacts are limited insofar as we have as a basic principle self-financing. Our thinking restrains us to such limits since we condemn terrorism and since our thinking is still ill-digested by many Islamist movements. It is even adjudged sometimes as subversive in relation to the traditional approaches developed hitherto in the Arab-Muslim world. |
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| 9.Before undertaking university studies, you studied in a French-speaking high school. In what way has this experience influenced your vision of the relations between the West and Islam? |
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| I think that combining cultures can only be beneficial on condition that one does not lose his soul in them. Islam is in fact a religion that invites people to give a meaning and a destination to their life, not a set of rigid traditions, as people might often think. Islam is a spiritual anchor that enables us to discover in peace all the cultures we want. However, my double culture and my commitment arise in me the vocation of a mediator between two civilisations. I feel I belong to a rising generation of intellectuals who act somewhat as border escorts. Our role is to find new balances between these two worlds and to develop an art of dialog that would be at variance with the clash of civilisations (inevitable for certain bellicose policies). It is the work of a tightrope walker, a very restricting work because sometimes we feel to be misunderstood by the two sides. The expectation of an afterlife and the practice of spirituality enable us to progress in this world that increasingly becomes complicated and that moves farther from the real opportunities of genuine dialogs. |
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| 10.Many people in the West find it difficult to see any relationship between Islam and feminism. The controversy about the Islamic veil is mentioned as the most significant example of this antithesis. In your opinion, what does the veil represent and, more generally, what is the significance of this debate? |
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| This story of Islamic veil is the very expression of the tense attitude of the two worlds. The West gets edgy about this identity mark that reminds of irredentism and of the resistance of a culture with which it still has to settle post-colonial scores. The edgy reaction of the Muslim world is the expression of the “protected bastion”, as Jocelyne Cesari puts it. The woman is held hostage of a Muslim history that has turned her into a standard it bears against invadors. Emasculated by the regimes in power, the Muslim world has transferred its identity repressed sentiments to the woman and her body. It is like the last bastion that remains of our Muslim identity. The Islamic veil is a Qur’anic recommendation for women within the framework of a spiritual progress. In no way can it become a form of coercion. It is the symbol of a spiritual submission of the woman, not the alienation of the woman to a given tradition. It also comes within the framework of an intelligent practice that takes into consideration social priorities and realities. In no way can Islam be reduced to female dress. |
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| 11.In your opinion, and in the case of Morocco, what is the relationship between lack of democracy and gender submission? What criticism do you address to the recent amendments of the Mudawana? |
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| Contrary to what you may think, we have never been against amending the Mudawana. If the Mudawana has changed, it is because the regime has very well grasped that we were not against. It had to do it under international pressures that dictate dogmatic, pseudo-democratic norms.Long before us, the women of the Left criticized the Mudawana; they often did it very shyly because calling into question the latter meant calling into question the legitimacy of the regime, which neither the Left nor the Right never dared—and will never dare—do. Their claims were therefore not taken into account since official Islam is an Islam that combines autocracy and patriarchate. I was then the first to proclaim loud that the Mudawana was not a sacred text.The regime draws its legitimacy from the claim that it is the defender of traditions. It happens that those traditions have in fact nothing to do with the spirit of the Qur’anic laws. We try in our thinking to free such spirit from the ideological cages developed by the usurping dynasties like the Umayyads. Islam must be extricated from those cages, and the woman will consequently be freed as well as the whole society. Some biased media coverage made people think that we have marched against the amendment of the Mudawana. In fact, we marched against the Plan of integrating women into development, which was a plan of alienation of our countries into international policies of containment. It is true that the plan also proposed some amendments of the Mudawana, which in itself did not bother us since we had raised the debate well before. It was perhaps an awkward gesture from us since other movements which took to the streets with us made of this story of Mudawana their key issue and turned out to be more royalist than the king as far as political conservatism is concerned. The amendment falls even along the lines of our thinking since we have always defended the idea that the disastrous condition of the woman in the land of Islam is due to political choices, not to the spirit of our original texts. The new personal status code has drawn from these same sources to make concessions. |
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| 12.You say in all your interviews that your goal is not to make of Morocco an Islamic Republic (like Iran), but to look for a Moroccan conception and practice of democracy. Can you please explain this idea further? |
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| I don’t think that the Muslim world is a monolithic bloc. There is a world of difference between Shiism and Sunnism just as there is a world of difference between the geostrategic stakes of Morocco and those of Iran. A republic for me is synonymous with democracy, which means first and above all the choice of the people. All surveys say that the Muslim peoples want to be ruled by Islam. It is true that it is horrifying to reduce Islam to a code of punishments, but that is a grotesque, caricatured approach. Islam is a spirit that bears equity. Spirituality and equity can be an excellent driving force not only of development, but also of union and unity if things are left to take their natural course. The system of Caliphate was a very wise and very equitable model of managing the “commonweal” or res publica. It was a nascent model; it falls to us to develop such system within a modern framework and with modern means. |
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| 13.Do you receive a lot of messages of solidarity for your trial? |
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| More than one might think. |
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| 14.When I was Morocco, I asked several persons from different social backgrounds to give me their opinion about you and, as you may imagine, the answers were different. But the majority said that you have passed over the “bounds”. Is your objective to make others pass over those bounds? In your opinion, what are the bounds that are not to be passed over? |
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| I am aware to be iconoclast to the end just like my father and my intellectual guide was in his writings. My objective is to break several taboos. The biggest straitjacket that the deviant regimes have imposed on us for centuries is that of silence. Our declining political history is made of a series of conniving or forced silences. The Umayyads preached their autocratic doctrines in the name of the sacred nature of texts while the Companions of the Prophet who could denounce their deceptive schemes kept silent because the keepers of the autocratic flame were behind them, unsheathing their swords. Later, the scholars, “the Ulemas”, kept quiet out of pique, cowardice, or for the sake of preserving the unity of the community. It is time for things to change. No more silence. My action was all the more iconoclast since I am a woman. I disrupt all schemes drawn by official and traditional Islam for the glory of original Islam. That’s my own jihad. |
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| 15.You emphasize in your interviews on your refusal of violence. But the West today finds it difficult to hear about a non-violent jihad. How is it possible to have this idea circulate in Europe? |
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| I was talking about our ideological straitjackets in the land of Islam. I think that Europe is not without them too. Europe is today victim of a sort of neo-orientalism that is most scathing because circulated by the mass media that completely distort realities for political and commercial reasons. Islam has given lessons of peace for humanity when it was not rerouted for sheer ideological ends. The increasing defamatory campaign against the Muslim world further exacerbates its emotive reactions and takes it further away from its role as a bearer of a most humanist message. It is in the interest of Europe, for reasons of economic and political nearness, to take the initiative of a real dialog with Islam. If your governments seem completely powerless to run a real culture of dialog, your civil societies and your intelligentsia have very interesting potential. |
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| 16.In your opinion, to go beyond the idea of Clash of Civilisations, can women, either Muslim or Christian, build a less ideological dialog? |
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| I think that women have indeed a tendency to dialog and to a more human understanding of our differences. In her book « femmes politiques » [political women], Laure Adler says something to which I fully subscribe: “Women push further the desire of having things fulfilled. That is because they are women and mothers, and therefore have an instinct for what is vital. Men have an approach that is more abstract, more confrontational, and an inborn sense of conservatism. If women were allowed to be more in politics, politics would be different.” I think of politics in the noble sense of the word. The word “politics” comes from managing “polis”, which means a city, or our world that has become a village, a big human city that needs so much female sensitivity that brings life, inner beauty and self-sacrifice for the good of others. Actually, I would have very much wanted that Mother Theresa replaced Bush. |
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| * The magazine "VOLONTARI per lo sviluppo" published in their April 2007 issue, under the rubric "personnalié" an article by journalist "GIANLUCA LAZZOLINO" entitled " NADIA YASSINE LA PASIONARIA ISLAMICA". The article is based on an interview with Nadia Yassine; we herein publish the text in its entirety. |
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