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| Nadia Yassine, 04 September 2008 |
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| Journalist: Why did you disappear from the public eye lately? |
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| Nadia Yassine: It is true that I have somewhat disappeared from the Moroccan media due to some health issues. But I am always carefully following national and international news. I still had many activities that haven't been given media coverage though. |
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| Journalist: What kind of activities? |
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| Nadia Yassine: For example, I was in Barcelona not long ago. I attended a meeting organized by the association Medlink in Rome a few weeks ago. I come back slowly but surely. Besides, I am very present in the internal workshops of the women's section of our movement. |
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| Journalist: how does it feel to be the daughter of Abdessalam Yassine? |
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| Nadia Yassine: no one questions their identity, they just live it naturally. It is like asking someone how it feels to have black or blue eyes. This is my father …my reality. It is a spiritual belonging as well. This does not exclude the fact that I had an early awareness of belonging to a family that is like no other. This happened when I was fifteen and my father was interned in a psychiatric hospital for political reasons. Before, I was a carefree teenager like the others, I had plans and dreams quite conventional and normal for my age. Then all hell broke loose, it was a powerful experience, it is the least we can say about it, but since, it has become second nature for me. |
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| Journalist: This awareness was one catalyst, what other factors contributed to producing the person you are today?
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| Nadia Yassine: my father's entire life since that moment had become a long struggle in non-violence for the dignity of this people. He paid from his freedom and well-being because of that struggle. Charges were pursued against him for publishing the newspaper "Assobh" which cost him two years' imprisonment in an unhealthy citadel infested with rats and corruption. Then he was placed under house arrest for 10 years. He still undergoes direct Makhzanian harassment in the form of police officers posted in front of his door 24/7, and an indirect one via certain press. A one that popular wisdom so accurately calls "kari hnku" (those who rent their "mandibles"). |
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| Journalist: let's go back to when you were 15 years of age; to the girl in the prime of life, how exactly did the changeover operate? |
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| Nadia Yassine: I had a particular attachment to my father. This goes beyond the genetic identification to a father inasmuch as I consider him to be a spiritual guide around whom I experience an approach quite relaxing and invigorating of Islam. I immediately felt involved in his struggle. At first, and considering my age, it was an emotional commitment and the cause of this father/spiritual guide became mine. For him I would have done anything, and very soon he taught me to be courageous. I remember bringing him the basket of victuals while he was interned, where I used to secretly slip some paper and pens. He was then forbidden to write and forbidden books. That was my contribution to his resistance. Then little by little I became interested in the thinking and I joined the project in full knowledge of its bases and its outcomes. My father's sincerity in his everyday interactions and his personal commitments only reinforced my dedication to the cause for which he lived: a return to our senses. I was set to defend that cause until the end. |
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| Journalist: We see that in the country, things have not really changed in the sense that cops are practically everywhere. You must admit that it can be pretty smothering at times. |
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| Nadia Yassine: It is never nice to be harassed unless one is masochistic; it so happens that we are not! But we eventually got used to it especially when one is aware from the outset of the price to be paid. My father was willing to pay with his life and not just his freedom. I remember that when he wrote the "open letter to the King of Morocco" he had prepared his shroud. This was another striking event that made us consider all police harassment with great serenity. Anyway, Morocco is a police state, a country of cops. Moroccan citizens live with cops everywhere around them, even in their head. We are policed down to our core self. It is called "being conditioned for self-censorship". |
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| Journalist: Don't you have the impression that it has changed at all? |
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| Nadia Yassine: I think it has gotten worse, I think we are being helplessly delivered to a category of people very eager for material gain, that also happens to be a very poorly paid police institution. It is becoming increasingly serious. The so-called national security conducts systematic holdups and picks the citizens' pockets on a daily basis, since the state is no longer able to properly remunerate the pillars of its structure. I can somehow understand the fact that this over-exploited caste resorts to corruption. But is it fate? Well, citizens are not supposed to pay for the mess of a completely rotten power. I must say that it is becoming really stifling indeed. |
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| Journalist: going back to your father and his struggle, has there been any development since? When you were just a teenager, you had already committed with your heart to the cause of your father and his mission; you eventually intellectualized the matter and engaged in the substance of the debate and the struggle. Has there been any change in your relationship with your father with age, experience, and the cumulating of events? |
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| Nadia Yassine: If I said no, I would be abnormal. I think we do grow, we do not stay teenager all our life. I had to become an adult by mitigating the emotional side in favor of a more profound approach. I had a passionate relationship with my father and a somewhat oppressive dependence on him. Now I gained confidence and I think I became a little more mature emotionally. I am trying now to have a responsible attitude in relation to a thinking that deserves to be well kept and properly communicated. I defend that thought by striving to popularize it and make it accessible, because I feel very close to its sources, which is a heavy burden. So, I am now in charge of a huge intellectual and, above all, spiritual heritage that I have the duty to pass on as best I can and by different means. Some of my methods may seem aggressive; I am here referring to my famous stance concerning the Republic. |
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| Journalist: Justice and Spirituality is incarnated by Abdesalam YASSINE. The other aspect, the media, is played by Nadia YASSINE. Is it not somehow a hereditary system inside the justice and spirituality movement? |
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| Nadia Yassine: the movement Justice and Spirituality has never been represented by my father. It was founded by my father, nobody can contest that, I think that this is what led some to present the matter the way they did. The reduction was quickly made by a mass media conditioned by the instantaneous and the sensational. They generally do not seek to develop the depth of a complex thought and do not go beyond the hypothetical deconstruction of the tip of the iceberg. You are probably very aware of the multiple labels associated with the movement. |
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| Journalist: You have therefore good conscience. |
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| Nadia Yassine: This is not about good or bad conscience. We are simply aware of being at the centre of a fact that is incommodious to some because it represents a new approach in the general history of the Arab-Muslim world. It is even more revolutionary compared to the near Moroccan history, and it is quite normal that some people just can't fully comprehend it. It is commonly mistaken for a Sufi Zaouia. The later is the closest model in the Moroccan memory but it has nothing to do with the reality of Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane (Justice and Spirituality). My father founded Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane but Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane is a school of ijtihad. It is also a set of institutions, which contrary to what people think, have much more democratic practices that the so-called political parties. Those who give themselves the trouble to look more closely at the movement discover it better by observing the functioning of its institutions. My father is indeed the spiritual father, but he never intervenes in decision-making. It is the Council of Orientation (Majlisse al Irchade), the Council of consultation (Majlisse Shura) and the General Secretariat (Al Amana Al Amma) for the political circle, who hold this prerogative. |
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| And to go back to your question, the press was interested in me because, one must admit, I represent a rather iconoclastic version of the "Islamist persona". First of all I am a woman; secondly I happen to speak a language other than Arabic, which tends to attract a press in the lookout for the sensational. This made me an ideal object for headlines. It is true that Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane is sometimes the victim of this media interest, but this is not our fault. The fact that we are not entitled to an official tribune of our own played a big role in this selectivity and the promotion of certain media figures in the movement and not others, but frankly I do not exclusively represent Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane (Justice and Spirituality). The movement is much richer and a lot more interesting than what I can ever represent. I am a facet that is perhaps interesting, and I just want to mention in passing an important fact which would also explain the media craze that has accompanied me for years. In the 80's, while the tread of lead was at its peak with Hassan II and the movement was not yet recognized, I was in a way sanctioned to speak for my father; other members of the movement did not have that. I think that ever since, the press has become accustomed to interviewing me. |
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| Journalist: there is the exotic side too. |
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| Nadia Yassine: Yes, exotic and iconoclastic |
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| Journalist: Regarding Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane today, what is it really? A year and a half ago, there was this huge media hype about it. I am very doubtful regarding the veracity of everything that was published, because it is too huge from a rational point of view and it's hard to take even if one really believes in it. What happened at that time? What are the truths to retain from the 2006 hype and what really happened afterward? |
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| Nadia Yassine: 2006 is a huge storm in a glass of water, and the ones who were most disappointed were not the members of our movement. Some of the principles of the movement, whose mystical roots are a secret to no one, were used against it.The culture of ru'ya (mystical vision) is so deeply rooted in our culture that the negative propaganda sort of had a boomerang effect. The power, in its effort to ridicule the movement, has forgotten that popular belief never abandoned occult values however occulted they have come to be. Then, the media's fierce campaign slowly subsided. It is true that media gives the impression that the thing is there only when we talk about it. This relative lull gave the impression that the movement is losing momentum, but this is a false impression. We have no means of communication except for the movement's website, and we all know that surely not everyone has access to the internet in Morocco. Do we really have to recall the big blow that Morocco took right to its battered chin with the last World Bank report that depicted us as a real wasteland? |
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| Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane (Justice and Spirituality) exists also when they do not talk about it. It has a strategy launched 30 years ago and a firm one to that: it is a strategy of education, and education, and it is carried on in the proximity of people. It takes place at the level of the political circle, associations and so on. We have a permanent contact with people. We have a plan that has been working for 30 years. It is true that we do not have the necessary funds for a genuine education policy, but we have our unwavering determination and faith in God and His promises to help those who are serving justice. We do not have 26% of the national budget, the percentage expected to finance education. Incidentally, where do these funds go? So we have our desire to do something that led us to create associations that are very effective when they are not harassed or simply dissolved for belonging to the movement "Justice and Spirituality." We're there! We are right in the middle of this continuous struggle. After everything that happened: the savage repression, the relentless harassment, the stigmatization in the press, all the lawsuits against us, the movement should have disappeared since a long time ago. Yet we're here and we invite people of goodwill to come and see what we do. Our doors are open when the Makhzen does not close them. By the by, after the open days that we have organized, the ones that provoked the wrath of the Makhzen, more than 900 lawsuits were filed against members of Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane, we have lost over five million DH in confiscated equipments during those savage raids and in fines. The losses are all the more catastrophic for us that the movement is self-financing by its own members. Despite all these obstacles we are still there, our presence is increasingly evident and the Makhzen is perfectly aware of that. |
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| Journalist: Let's talk about your resistance and actions. There is a perception that the posture adopted by Al Adl Wa Al Ihssane in all matters regarding the country is quiet uncertain, is this a matter of convenience to avoid any clear commitment? |
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| Nadia Yassine: It is important to know that our movement is not based on emotion, but on reflection. My father almost made it to the government. He was only a few offices away from becoming the minister of education, if only he had the desire to embark in official shenanigans. He is a high-flying intellectual and not the illuminated dervish some people try to make him out to be. The basic theory that underpins the movement is a deep reflection that takes into consideration the history and political realities that pertain to decolonization, to the nature of power and many other parameters. Boycotting a power that we systematically criticize as long as its nature remains unchanged is one of our basic principles. We are a school of thought. We have ambitions that are far superior to merely receiving a few crumbs from the power. We also seek to adhere to the concept of Jihad which is primarily a resistance to injustice. Our Jihad therefore is to resist in non-violence a power that entraps in its web anyone who commits to it with no real guarantees. The nature of power has not changed; there is no sign of real change. We should not be carried away and commit ourselves just for the sake of doing it. All those who did are now co-opted by the power even if they do not want to admit it, worse, they are probably not even aware that they are. |
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| Journalist: So you're not at in agreement of the idea that change can come from within? |
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| Nadia Yassine: of course it can, provided that the system is unlocked. I must tell you that there are two levels in our approach. There is a theoretical level. We have the sacred duty to denounce abuses committed in the name of Revelation. Our thinking is very subversive in relation to the nature of the power that we believe has taken hostage a universal and grand message. But we have also chosen to act, and not stop at contemplation and reflection. And we have real and concrete proposals that are very realistic. It is true that I have proclaimed a Republic; but I did it within this framework of non-violent resistance, and not as an immediate proposal for a country that has been sclerosed for centuries by a monarchization of minds. I just wanted to raise the bar of freedom of expression as high as it can go. It was a symbolic act meant to lift taboos rather than an actual immediate proposal. |
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| Journalist: looking back, the exact wording you used was a "republican model" which suggests something absolute, theoretical…academic. |
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| Nadia Yassine: Exactly. I tried to establish a culture of debate. That is why on the day of my trial, when a note came from nowhere (we don't know which nowhere, most likely the American "nowhere") and made the judge flee without even ending the session, I told him: "Come back, I want this trial". No matter how much hardship it would have cost me, the people of Morocco would at least have won the battle of lifting secular taboos and murderous ideological shackles. To return to your first question, alongside this substantive action, we also have concrete and very realistic proposals. The total change of the Constitution is and will remain our ultimate demand for a genuine participation. We are rebellious by necessity and not by nature! If we spot an opportunity, a real opportunity to change the reality of Moroccan from within, we will certainly not refuse to commit ourselves. |
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| Journalist: where can this opportunity come from? And from whom! |
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| Nadia Yassine: From whom? That's a good question! Well, the constitution is based, tailored and measured on a person that holds all the levers of powers and therefore all the wealth. It is therefore necessary to unlock one of the most autocratic systems ever, keeping in mind that attempting to combine autocracy with democracy is an unfeasible aberration. If we want a real democracy in Morocco, we must begin by removing this big bolt. The latest manifestation of this anachronistic Constitution is the famous affair of Fouad Murtada. It is a system that is based on absolute arbitrariness, and on blatant violation of human rights. Thus, a common practice in the net becomes a crime of lese-majesty endorsed by the backwardness of our Constitution. |
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| Journalist: I have read the articles for which the man is pursued; we are talking 5 years at least. |
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| Nadia Yassine: taking part in this system amounts to condoning and endorsing archaic practices. We must first start by discarding in the trash can of history a Constitution granted by a king who was an autocrat, refined…may be, but none the less an autocrat. |
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| ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------* Interview published by the newspaper "Le Soir" on April 2008. |
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